Response 1:
A friend said:
"but you have to first defend that issue before you can say anything about it, as socialism and a Marxism both reject that form of thinking. Also you would have to give the case of justification as to why pushing greed and capital as the ultimate goal is morally and even consequently right. To say that humans will always seek money is to beg the question that markets must always exist. which in marxs theory that's exactly what the endgame was: to eliminate the market."
I don't agree that I have to defend meritocracy if I am using it as the pre factum. Meritocracy is what I prefer. My argument is "if one prefers meritocracy, one should prefer the free market as the best form of meritocracy".
In that case, meritocracy doesn't have to be defended.
If you like, the reason I like meritocracy practically is because I find other options unfair. I prefer fairness ideologically. A total egalitarianism would be unfair because people who have contributed absolutely nothing; people who are not educated or... frankly, useful, would still have a vote. They would have just as much say as I do in whatever goes down in my society.
A totalitarianism with one ruler above the rest would be unfair because he has done nothing to attain a higher status than me or anyone else.
Rule by majority is unfair for the same reason. Why should the majority hold their decision above my head?
Oligarchy is unfair for the same reason, also.
That is why I prefer a meritocracy.
I don't think I'm pushing for greed as the ultimate goal. Even if I was, I think that statement isn't bad. Pursuing greed isn't an inherently evil act. I don't say that humans will always seek money, I say that humans will usually seek power. I am not willing to assume that humans will not attempt to seek power. Power is attained through a number of ways and as long as resources are scarce, and people want/need them, there will be a market. It may be an illegal market, but there will be a market nonetheless. The only way to disestablish the market would be to disestablish the idea of ownership and to keep people from ever discovering it again would be the only way to keep the market from re-establishing itself.
I think we can agree that the reason people sell drugs and their body in prostitution despite them being illegal is because of the profit motive.
When the socialism happens in Utopia, and Fruit X has disappeared, and one guy finds X, he has found something very valuable. Something that our most primitive part of the mind will tell us is trade-able. Suddenly this guy can get anything he wants as long as he keeps his X and there is a demand for X.
It is for this reason that I believe a market cannot be definitively destroyed. I believe a market will invariably reestablish itself so long as there is scarcity of resources. Since I don't believe the market can be destroyed, I think that we should be using a system which acknowledges that.
Response 2:
"Ah I see your view. However I dont think you can make all the claims you do. For one please explain how something based on merit can be fair at all. When your merit is almost never decided by yourself. Secondly to say that the market can not be destroyed is just not true as technology can and in some aspects has risen to the point in which we could provide what is needed to the people without the need of a market. In fact the only thing that holds a society to the necessity of a market is the individualist mindset. There are plenty of anthropological cases that show societies functioning in a society in which a market is not established. I don't argue that ppl want power but when the bases is meritocracy the inherit competitiveness creates a sense of threat in which the people must take the ideology that they need power or they will die. And its that difference that i see as a danger."
I think merit by definition must be decided by some standard. Obviously you can't just say "I deserve more".
I didn't say it as an absolute. I said as long as we have scarcity the market cannot be destroyed. I don't know what technology you're referring to, but there is a problem between providing what is needed and what is wanted.
If I have the money, why shouldn't I be able to get something that would be called a "want". How do we define "need"?
I think the inherent competitiveness creates a threat, yes, to the person providing it. They must compete to make the best product or to convince me that their product is the best. That sounds to me as more of a pro than a con. The competitiveness causes the people to be more comfortable rather than less because general population probably isn't competing within itself.
Response 3:
"you need to define merit if that's what your whole idea revolves around. and the concept of want *in the sense your using it* is again one of the individualistic mind set which again isn't a requirement of life or society. Also the threat is beneficial to advance technology and methods but it comes at the cost creating a perceived necessity for things we don't need. Therefore pitting people against each other rather then working together."
"oh and by technology i mean it in the broadest sense of the term"
I would define merit as what you have in a free market. If you manage to make $1, you have earned that $1 sufficient for me to say you merit that $1. If you do it by force or fraud, you still earned the $1, but now everyone hates you and the law will probably step in to take that $1 back.
So who then will define the difference between a want and a need? Would you suggest that we only allow clothing and food? Do you think that in a socialism, wants would disappear?
If a smart guy created a fantastic device in the socialism which wouldn't be seen as a need will we say that the device shall not be distributed because it's not needed? Why work together if it improves nothing?
I don't think we have technology necessary to predict the best distribution of goods.
Response 4:
"Well first off my alternative is a whole other story so to stay on topic i won't expand on my views. but with your first comment. what if someone is mentally handicapped or lacks the skills to earn any money at no fault of their own like wise when someone inherits money how has that merit been earned by anything more than chance and good luck and most importantly what part of any of this even remotely resemble fairness which was the justification you gave for why merit should matter. as for the distinction between want and need was not that of eliminating want but that you were using want in the sense that "i want something for my self with no consideration to anyone else". an alternative is "that i want something but i don't need it that bad in contrast to the cost to others, to make, ect."
"my point was simply that you were implying that there is no other alternative to wanting something"
I think if someone was mentally handicapped, they would certainly have charities to take care of them, however I haven't said anything about welfare. I have no problem with welfare, I just think that charities do it better. If you look at government as a charity, the amount of money that you put in that comes out to the benefactor is like 60% compared to the Red Cross which does it at 90%. I don't think the government has the right to take away inheritance, but I think as long as they do, a 100% inheritance tax would even the playing field while being evil. I don't have a problem with someone keeping their inheritance though. One person having lots of money doesn't translate to another person having less. I think your
"that i want something but i don't need it that bad in contrast to the cost to others, to make, ect." is unrealistic. Who defines that? Who makes the cut off level at which you no longer can have that item?
Response 5:
"You can't claim its unrealistic when that form exist in several societies. Also again you didn't answer my question. In a "fair" society the handicapped shouldn't be limited to only taking money from Charity my claim wasn't their well fair but rather them being treated as fair because they are human beings. In a "fair" society everyone should have the same chance at doing what they wish, but this becomes impossible in a meritocracy as almost every factor that determines ones merit has nothing to do with choice but rather luck. I Guess the bottom line is that in a meritocracy it becomes a very hard case to assume that it can be fair, as fairness implies that its a society that is just .Justice is essentially based on the idea of equality. In contrast meritocracy is based on the exact opposite as it only gauges what you can do with what you've been given rather than being given a "fair" chance"
I don't know which society you're referring to, so please tell me. I didn't say they shouldn't be treated fairly. I feel that I did answer the question. Since money would be a measure of merit, welfare (as a system, not as a concept. As in we give them money so they can have a share of the wealth.) would give the handicapped a voice in the meritocracy of a free market. Some fairness is sacrificed, it's true, but we also can't justify taking too much say from a more productive member of society.
The problem with the argument that everyone should have the same chance at doing what the wish is that no society could provide everyone that chance. In a socialism, the person would still be handicapped and still unable to do as they wish to the extent that their disability hinders them.
I disagree that it has "nothing to do with choice but rather luck". I liken that argument to one of poker. There certainly is an element of luck, but only a newbie would suggest that there is no strategy or that it is ALL luck. In fact, I would say that it is mostly skill but luck still plays a part. A society can be just without making everyone equal in every way. Making everyone equal in every way is impossible so long as there is scarcity in ANYTHING. An attractive person would have the resource of attractiveness that an ugly person does not. Justice is based on equality
before the law, not just equality. That means that no matter how rich or attractive you are, the law still applies to you in the same way that it applies to the ugly poor. I think you're taking my pseudosociety farther than I am suggesting.
There would still be grants and welfare and other things to even the playing field, there would just not be extra taxes on the rich or regulations that preemptively attack for wrongdoing.
Response 6:
"any collective society in which a market is minimal or even non-existent. where social roles are done for the sake of society rather than self. historically this has been the case in many collective society and continues to this day. Also the problem with your money ->merit is that it inverses the relationship between the two variables for those who receive welfare. the reason being that a persons merit is now determined by their money rather than their money being determined by their merit. which again lends it self to a very unfair description as your now saying their worth is determined by how much we decided to give them. which is even more unfair than saying that your social worth is defined by how much you can make. Also again a semantically confusion when i talked about justice, i meant it in the moral sense and in the appeal to moral laws. in other words when you said a fair society i assumed you meant a place where everyone gets a shot at being what they want to be. by the way this is much different from a society that give everyone what they want. all im talking about is an equal opportunity to attain what they desire, Im not with marx on the idea of complete self actualization however the opportunity is one that would seem fair for everyone to have. as for me taking the claim too far, maybe I am, but the truth is if you want defend your point, you should be capable to show how it is logically derived from some sort of moral theory. and furthermore I think people need to understand the full implication of their political beliefs......and I also like to debate and enjoy your responses as so far they have been good arguments"
I would like a specific example, I can't think of a society in which market doesn't exist. The minimal one is irrelevant because I said it is unrealistic to expect a zero market, not a near-zero market.
You are correct that welfare inverses the relationship, but I disagree that that's a problem. They no longer receive money as per merit, but then that just means it's not a 100% pure meritocracy, it doesn't suggest that the system will fail (not that I think you're suggesting that). I think we should give them the average if they're on welfare, in that case, how is it more unfair that PART of their worth is determined by how much we give them? I think a meritocracy gives the highest amount of people the chance to attain what they desire, the people just have to work for it- it's not a hand-out. I think my moral theory would be individualistic. I can't ever determine that everyone in society has to act in a certain way, but for me, the society would be free so that you could choose how to act. My individual moral theory is that I should help people but not to the extent that I hurt myself. This allows me to improve while not leaving my fellow man starving in the dust. If everyone did like that, I think we would still see a general upward trend in the standard of living.
I appreciate arguing with you because you make good arguments and don't start flame wars. You should check out
debate.org.
Response 7:
"I think if you accept the inversion of the relationship and you accept that meritocracy then you are accepting another form of morality all together. individualist would not have any room for anyone else. the only time someone of that form of thought can justify spending money for other on moral grounds is when it comes at no cost to self. otherwise you can only justify that charitable actions are only being done for selfish reasons alone which is not what you ment when you refereed to "your fellow man". another thing is that the inversion of the relation separates and removes them from the same form of society that you have declared as fair. which then in turn makes your fair society only to those who you deem were born with the means to create their own merit. In other words only those that can make money have any value in society and for the rest shall be arbitrarily given a value and nothing more. Dont get me wrong your idea is valid and this world may be better off in some ways if everyone belived it. but thats true about almost all philosophy.but i don't think its sound and consistent as it seems to hold to contradictory viewpoints.you want to claim that freedom is the ultimate virtue but you want to also appeal to justice as the most important. so to clarify which do you personally think matter more?"
I disagree that an idividualist would have no room for anyone else. Individualism is choice for the individual. If in my free market system, people decided to get together and live socialistically, there would be no problem with it. Why not? That is their individual right to create groups with collective rights. I think your analysis that someone can only justify spending money for others when it is at no cost to self is flawed. In the system I proposed, money is not the
only form of showing merit. It is not the only form to show value- therefore if a Christian decided to give $100 to charity, he would be fulfilling himself individualistically, just without money as a measure.
I agree that it is not fair that these people are separated from their ability to contribute meaningfully so society, however that is not a card that was dealt by the system, rather it was a card that was dealt by nature, however, to make it
more fair; to make it as fair as possible, we give them welfare. With welfare they still get a vote in how society goes. They still get at least the average ability to make a decision on the direction of the economy.
You misrepresent that there are myriad things that have value. Money is just the most quantifiable one. You can have value without having money, but you can't have money without having value. It is true that won't have as much money as a man who could make money above the average, but I have already said why that's as okay as possible in the previous paragraph.
I value freedom more than justice, but I think that freedom can lead to justice, and I don't think they contradict.
Justice and freedom can co-exist.
Response 7:
"dont have much time gonna do bullet points this time
1: "In the system I proposed, money is not the only form of showing merit" is the opposite of" I feel that I did answer the question. Since money would be a measure of merit" assuming you meant there are other it still don't change my argument just imagine someone who was born with very little things that create merit.This actually brings me closer to my point which is parallel to Rawls theory of justice
2:if a christian gives money and it fulfills him intrinsically its been done for selfish reasons. which was my point. and is still consistent with an individualistic philosophy.that exactly my point you can't justify doing it if it don't do anything for you or give you some value
3:freedom implys inequality in assets, opportunity, money, ect..Justice implies equality,regulation, and control. they can co-exist but one always matters more than the other.
4: you saying that the system didn't give them the disadvantage has nothing to do with the society being fair. In a just society would it not be the fairest thing to provide those who through no fault of their own have been screwed by nature?"
1. Someone is born with few merit-givers, so we give them something that essentially shows false merit. They don't merit it by ability, but they still get a fair say in the direction of society. Welfare.
2. If that's the case, I don't understand your problem with a complete individualism. Who cares if I profit from helping you so long as you are helped?
3. We have already agreed that we disagree on what justice is. I believe justice is just equality before the law. Economy is outside of the scope of justice. I don't believe it is just to have equality, regulation, and control, I believe that it can be just- but it doesn't necessitate justness.
4. Yes, it would be fair to provide for them. That's what welfare is.